Question/Comment:

My rabbi asked me a tough question. He said, "Why did God create Yeshua if he was not the Messiah?" Then he went on to say it was because the sages always knew there would be two great monotheistic world religions in addition to Judaism long before the birth of Yeshua. Two - because one would be too overwhelming and would swallow the Jews whole. The sages knew one religion would stem from Ishmael, but did not know what the other would be until Christianity was born....

He also said God would bring the true messiah into the world because otherwise, the pagan Gentiles would be irreverent, and would forever continue to worship trees and stones. Knowing this, He created Christianity and Islam. Although radically different in many ways, he said, Islam and Christianity have two things in common: Both religions believe in one God, and they both believe He gave the Torah to the Jews. This was so the Gentile world would understand the concept of God, who the Jewish people were, and what it meant to believe in a savior.

Messianic Judaism's Response:

First of all, WHERE does the Bible say God created Messiah Yeshua? The Bible tells us Yeshua was begotten in the Image of His Father and that He was "everlasting", which denotes "from the beginning of time" (see Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2, John 1:1).

Isaiah 48:16 "Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now Adonai ELOHIM has sent me and his Spirit."

Yeshua himself affirmed his eternal existence in John 8:58: Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"

Yeshua was in God before the beginning of the world. (John 8:58, Colossians 1:17, John 1:10). Yeshua in His divine nature was not created, and was from eternity a manifestation in the nature and character of the Father. Yeshua is One with the "LORD" and equal to Him in character, in Mission, in Nature, in Purpose, in Intention and Authority. This is so because of the Nature of God as the Sender and Yeshua as the "Sent one". There is total equality between the "LORD" and Yeshua and at the same time there is also a hierarchy in that the "LORD" is called "Father", and Yeshua is called "Son". (Please see, John 14:28) The same hierarchy is seen in the fact that Yeshua voluntarily put on flesh. "God is a Spirit" and Yeshua has to be acknowledged as Flesh. (See Philippians 2:6-11, 1 John 4:1-2) This hierarchy is clear from the mission of Yeshua as it is described in John 6:38, "For I came down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me." From the above verse we see that Yeshua and the Father must have a relationship of "Sender" - "Sent", and Yeshua is not both the "sender" and the "sent" at the same time.

Even in the Flesh Yeshua retained that special relationship with the "LORD" which made him equal to God (Colossians 2:9). However, that Equality does not in any way change the Oneness of the "LORD", and does not alter the "UNITY" of God.

Your rabbi said the sages thought that "God would bring the true messiah into the world because otherwise, the pagan Gentiles would be irreverent, and would forever continue to worship trees and stones. Knowing this, He created Christianity and Islam."

And the sages "knew" this how? They didn't get this "knowledge" from the Bible because the BIBLE doesn't mention this "fact"! The Bible mentions that there would be "other gods" and plenty of false prophets, etc., but it never infers that there would be "two great monotheistic world religions" that were supposed to "show Gentiles the concept of God". Please ask that rabbi to present chapter and verse showing that GOD supports this viewpoint....

Something you have to remember is that these "wise sages" also came from the belief in an "oral torah" - an entity which came strictly from man. The Bible says Moshe wrote down EVERYTHING, which doesn't leave room for an "oral torah".

GOD "created Christianity and Islam"? What a childish concept! MAN "created" all religions, including Christianity and Islam. God "breathed" His Word but most of the world didn't hear or bother to obey. Historically, the world slipped away from its relationship with God, and eventually the entire world was submerged in idolatry. Abraham re-discovered the idea of one God, and chose to accept the challenge to change the world through an understanding of monotheism and morality. Through his dedication and willingness to give up everything for God, he was chosen - and all his descendants after him - to become the teachers of morality. Abraham chose God, and thus God chose Abraham, and that is why the Jews are God's "Chosen". The Bible, however, tells us in only one place about how the Jews became His "Chosen":

Deuteronomy 7: 6 For you are a people set apart as holy for ADONAI your God. ADONAI your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure. 7 ADONAI didn't set his heart on you or choose you because you numbered more than any other people - on the contrary, you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 Rather, it was because ADONAI loved you, and because he wanted to keep the oath which he had sworn to your ancestors, that ADONAI brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from a life of slavery under the hand of Pharoah king of Egypt.

MAN has chosen to twist God's Word and, consequently, we have a myriad "religions", each claiming to have the market cornered on the Word of God. God DID give us a New Covenant via Yeshua (Jeremiah 31:31-34) - but it was not "Christianity"; it was a continuation of Judaism. Christianity, for the most part, misunderstood that Yeshua (Jesus) said He came not to abolish but to fulfill/establish/confirm Torah. Most Christians tend to overlook that Yeshua was a Torah-keeping, Sabbath-keeping, feast-keeping, synagogue-attending/teaching, tallit-wearing kosher JEW who didn't start a new "religion".

And as far as Islam is concerned, people who can think and reason for themselves should recognize that this religion was started by a megalomaniac, belligerent, murdering, thieving pedophile who "borrowed" and twisted Scripture straight out of the Old Testament (600 years AFTER Christ!), and taught that anyone who refuses to convert to his religion should be killed. If God created Islam, then He is directly responsible for the horrible scenes you can find at the Abrahamic Faith website.

Rest assured, God did NOT create evil; Satan did. God responds to our deliberate sinning; disciplining and judging His creation whenever needed. Because He gave us free will (knowing that we would be subject to evil, thanks to Satan and his hold on us since the fall of Adam and Eve), we often suffer the consequences of sin (i.e, if we murder someone we go to prison; if we start wars, we will have casualties; if we commit adultery, all those we love will eventually get hurt in the process....). "The purpose of all that was created was therefore to bring into existence a creature who could derive pleasure from God's own good…"

Adam and Eve did not know either good or evil, as we now do, before eating of the tree. Evil was not created at the "fall" of man, but was inherent at the foundation of creation (remember it is the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil). (Please see Yashanet's Judaism 101: The Purpose of Creation.)

God has been MORE THAN tolerant of our behavior! Every time he got the Jews back on track, they backslid. One king would get the kingdom right with God, the next would bring in the idols and veer from God's Word and lead all his subjects astray. Today, we are getting ever more decadent as time goes on; we've kicked God out of our schools, our government, out of everywhere, and we've condemned what God said was good and decided that "bad" was "right on" (as evidenced, for instance, in the fact that homosexuals are "getting married" and being ordained as priests - when God clearly states, throughout the Bible, that He sees homosexuality as "an abomination"). God has, over and over again, given the Jews and the Gentiles plenty of chances to "get right" with Him - and we've failed miserably.

It appears that YHWH has been tolerating "some situations, times, and people" thanks to His great love for us, as evidenced in the atoning death of His Son, Yeshua. Yeshua was our Final Sin Offering, and many have used that as "carte blanche" to sin (under the erroneous impression that we're free to do whatever we want).

Put another way, Yehsua is "the arm" of YHWH; he's not a "person" as many seem to think. It is the oneness of YHWH that manifests in Mashiyach, not that Mashiyach's divinity is separate from his Father's. However, in this case we are talking about humanity and not YHWH, and both of them have "natures" that cannot be seen, and yet are a root part of their being. Or, to put it yet another way, a "nature" is like a body hidden behind a curtain. For those in the audience, nothing of that nature can be seen. Then, all of a sudden, a hand and part of an arm appears through the veil. While we know there is a body attached to that limb, the limb is all we see. Furthermore, that arm moves with full force, will and agreement of the mind that controls the body. For the viewers, the arm appearing out of the curtain is the qnoma (occurrence) and the hidden mind behind that limb's movement is its kyanna (nature).

Question/Comment:

My rabbi said that, when the true messiah comes, the world will acknowledge that the Jewish people were correct in their interpretation, and that they alone are the one true righteous messengers of God, thus fulfilling all the major prophecies of the prophets. He explained it would make no sense for the Jews to be wrong about Yeshua, because the Jewish people would be remembered for eternity as the chosen people who chose wrong about the most important figure in religious and human history. Such a notion flies directly in the face of every major end time prophecy ever written about the future if Israel, the Jewish people, and their perception by the nations of the world.

Messianic Judaism's Response:

That rabbi got ONE thing right: Yeshua is the "most important figure in religious and human history"! Problem is, traditional Jews have IGNORED this fact and have been knocking themselves out to disprove Yeshua as the Messiah...

How can the Jews "fulfill all the major prophecies of the prophets"? HOW, pray tell, can anyone be "healed" by the bruises of Israel or the Jews? Has the world been healed by their sufferings? Furthermore, if the suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is "Israel", HOW can the servant die as a substitute for the sins of Isaiah's people - Israel? That would mean that Israel is dying as a substitute for the sins of Israel...which doesn't make sense! (Please read our series called "Messiah Revealed" on the Challenging The Refiner's Fire's Anti-Missionaries page.

Please read Evidence that Jesus is the Son of God, Did Yeshua Truly Fulfill the OT Prophecies and 48 Dead-On Bible Prophecies About Messiah Yeshua - and then tell us how "the Jews" could possibly fulfill ANY of them!

The problem that the traditional rabbis have with Yeshua is the fact that He didn't live up to THEIR expectations of who Messiah should be! Yeshua came the first time as a lamb, not as a lion. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, not with pomp and glory at the head of armies. He didn't promise political salvation, but spiritual salvation, by dying and rising again to atone for our sins. There are two sets of descriptions of the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures. One set of prophecies describe a suffering Messiah who will suffer and die to atone for our sins (see Isaiah 53, Zechariah 12:10, Daniel 9:24-27 Psalm 22, Zechariah 9:9). The other set of prophecies describe the victorious Messiah. The right way to deal with both descriptions of the Messiah is by realizing that Yeshua is the Messiah who came the first time, to suffer and die for the sins of the world. He will come again a second time to set up His Kingdom over the entire world. If Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies about the sufferings of the Messiah, rest assured that He will return to fulfill the prophecies about the victorious Messiah!

Question/Comment:

The rabbi reminded me that God absolutely hates idolatry. He asked me, "What else do we know about God? We know there are prophecies, some of which have been fulfilled by Yeshua, and some of which have not. We know the Torah specifically mentions messiah in a few verses, and in each we are told what he will do (build the temple, world peace, light to the gentiles, universal knowledge of God's law, etc.) But nowhere in the Torah are we told to believe in him specifically...." The question then becomes: If Yeshua did not fulfill all the prophecies, and if the Torah tells us what the messiah will do, but not that we are to believe in him, how can I place my faith in him, knowing this, when I worship God who loathes idolatry more than any other sin? If Yeshua IS "God within a man", believing in his supposed divinity is not idolatry because you believe in the same one God who can be whatever He wants to be (after all, among other things, He HAS presented Himself as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night....). If Jesus is NOT God, however - because he was a MAN - this makes belief in him idolatry.

Messianic Judaism's Response:

You answered your own question: If Yeshua IS "God within a man", believing in his supposed divinity is not idolatry because you believe in the same one God who can be whatever He wants to be (after all, among other things, He HAS presented Himself as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night....). Judging by all the prophecies that He has so far fulfilled and the evidence found in the aforementioned links, Yeshua has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that He is not only the promised Messiah, but also the New Covenant YHWH referred to in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

"....Nowhere in the Torah are we told to believe in Yeshua specifically".... Well, the Torah also didn't specify that Moshe would deliver Israel from Egypt until he did it. The Torah didn't specify to Moshe that he had to believe and do what he was hearing and seeing in the burning bush. The Torah didn't specify that the Jews had to follow Moshe out of Egypt; people went by faith. Get the drift?

The entire Tanach, however, DID foreshadow Yeshua. Deuteronomy 16:18 – 21:9 tells us that Yeshua was predicted by Moshe: "Whoever will not listen to My words which he [this prophet] shall speak in My name, I will require it at his hand” (18:19). Moshe says of Him: "YHWH your God shall raise up to you a prophet from among you, of your brothers, One like me; you shall listen to Him" (v. 15), and again in verse 18 YHWH is speaking, addressing Moshe: "I shall raise up a prophet to them from among their brothers, one like you; and I will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him." Mention is also made, in verses 16 and 17, of the fact that before the giving of the Torah in Chorev (Horeb), the Israelites had asked Moshe to interpose between them and YHWH, a request that YHWH apparently looked favorably upon. This future prophet, like Moshe, will also have this characteristic of mediation. Some of his others attributes will be: granting deliverance from bondage, being mighty in word and deed, offering strong leadership yet being humble beyond any man who had ever lived, willingness to offer up his own life for the people, acting as a teacher and a judge and being raised from among the ranks of his own people. Dvarim (Deuteronomy) 34:10 appends, "And never has a prophet like Moses arisen in Israel, whom YHVH knew face to face", thus adding another trait to the portrait of this (Moshe-like) individual.

Also see Qualifications of Messiah, in a Nutshell, and So You Don't Believe Yeshua is God Incarnate?.

You asked what else we know about God? Well, under the "Old Covenant" (which is what traditional Jews think we're still under), He:

• was a God of wrath, wars, vengeance, and death who allowed women to be kidnapped and raped.
• created ALL humankind, yet seemed to favor some over others, so that the "others" would be pagans destined for eternal death.
• killed people for trying to come up with a different/better way of worshipping HIM (offering "strange fire").
• instead of killing the stiffnecked Egyptian leaders, God ordered the murder of their innocent babies, instead.
• took away the Temple, which leaves us with no way to cover our sins. Etc.

Wow! When you think about it, WHO would want to worship a God like that? Sounds a lot like Allah to me!

On the other hand, God loved His belligerent and disobedient creation enough to give us a carte-blanche covering - along with a CHOICE to accept or reject Him - so that, even if we continued to go astray (as He KNEW we would), we would AUTOMATICALLY be covered, once and for all! Since we didn't understand God and His ways, He reached out to us yet again.

So, that begs the questions: is God still ordering the death of firstborns? Pitting people against each other and commanding wars? Killing those who are offering "strange fire"? If not, ask yourself if it's because MAYBE our good fortune in that regard has something to do with Yeshua's death!

Also ask yourself why the Azazel goat's red ribbon NEVER AGAIN turned white. Ask yourself HOW your sins are being forgiven these days, since there's been no Temple in which to offer sacrifices. (God ALWAYS demanded blood sacrifices to atone for sins, and He personally NEVER said He was accepting prayer, repentance, and good works in exchange - no matter WHAT "the rabbis" try to tell you! Either God has stopped forgiving the Jews, or He has offered them something they simply are too blind to see...

Yeshua has accomplished nearly all of the things that the messiah the Jews are still waiting for is supposed accomplish - and will CONTINUE to accomplish in GOD'S timing. Did Rabbi Schneerson accomplish all the above things? Has he accomplished HALF of those things? A third? No! He's still snoozing in his coffin, which means he hasn't even been raised from the dead yet! So, what are you going to do with the many prophecies that YESHUA ALREADY FULFILLED? Where do they fit in?

• Isaiah 11:1 - But a branch will emerge from the trunk of Yishai (Jesse), a shoot will grow from his roots.
  
  
• Isaiah 11:10 - On that day the root of Yishai (Jesse), which stands as a banner for the peoples - the Goyim (Gentiles) will seek him out, and the place where he rests will be glorious.
  
  
• Isaiah 53:2 - For before him he grew up like a young plant, like a root out of dry ground. He was not well-formed or especially handsome; we saw him, but his appearance did not attract us.
  
  
• Jeremiah 23:5 - "The days are coming," says ADONAI when I will raise a righteous Branch for David. He will reign as king and succeed, he will do what is just and right in the land.
  
  
• Jeremiah 33:15 - When those days come, at that time, I will cause to spring up for David a Branch of Righteousness. He will do what is just and right in the land.
  
  
• Zecheriah 3:8 - Listen, cohen gadol Y'hoshua (Joshua the high priest), both you and your colleagues seated here before you, because these men are a sign that I am going to bring my servant Tzemach [the sprout]. 9 For look at the stone I have put in front of Y'hoshua: on one stone are seven eyes; I will engrave what is to be written on it,' says ADONAI-Tzva'ot; 'and I will remove the guilt of this land in one day.
  
  
• Zecheriah 6:12 - ...and tell him, 'ADONAI Tzva'ot says: "There is coming a man whose name is Tzemach [the sprout]. He will sprout up from his place and rebuild the temple of ADONAI.

Question/Comment:

Okay, so why would God send us a Messiah who wasn't going to fulfill ALL the prophecies? Surely, if I was supposed to believe in Yeshua, at the outset, He would have fulfilled all the prophecies.

Messianic Judaism's Response:

Who said Messiah had to fulfill ALL the prophecies in His own lifetime, or for that matter, in your lifetime? Yeshua's disciples expected them to unfold in THEIR lifetimes as well, but God works in HIS timing, not ours! His timing ensured that Israel became a nation again - and in just one day as predicted in Isaiah 66:7-8, a couple thousand years AFTER Yeshua! HIS timing ensured that Israel would be rebuilt and would bloom again, and that the Jews would one day return to Israel: See Recently Fulfilled Bible Prophecies. The prophecies about Yeshua have been unfolding over the last couple thousand years as well. If those that have been fulfilled were fulfilled, what makes you think the rest WON'T be????

Hosea 4: 6 My people are destroyed for want of knowledge. Because you rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as cohen for me....

Question/Comment:

Let's talk about Isaiah 53 for a moment, specifically the proper translations which Christian Bibles seem to lack. For instance, the Hebrew word for "he" differs depending on whether God is speaking of Israel or is literally using the pronoun "he" for a man. Isaiah 53, in Hebrew, uses the version that refers to Israel. The Hebrew also says He was pierced for THEIR transgressions. The Christian bible says He was pierced for OUR transgressions. The problem? If Israel, referred to as He in the "nation sense," is pierced for "their" transgressions, then the surrounding chapters make sense, which discuss Israel's redemption from the pain inflicted by the sinful nations of the world.

Messianic Judaism's Response:

Yes, let's do talk about Isaiah for a moment. First of all, when you get a chance, please read our article on Isaiah 53.

"And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death...." (Is. 53:9).

When did Israel die? Surely it is not a Jewish belief that Israel will die, is it? That this does not apply to Israel is clear when you read all of Isaiah:

"How the faithful city has become a whore! She that was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her--but now murderers! (Is. 1:21)

"For the vineyard of the L-rd of Hosts is the House of Israel, and the people of Judah are his pleasant planting; he expected justice, but saw bloodshed; rightousness, but heard a cry!" (Is. 5:7)

"Ah, you who make iniquitous decrees, who write oppressive statutes, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be your spoil, and that you may make the orphans your prey! What will you do on the day of punishment, in the calamity that will come from far away? To whom will you flee for help, and where will you leave all your wealth...." (Is. 10:1-3)

"The way of peace you do not know, and there is no justice in their paths. Their roads they have made crooked; no one who walks in them knows peace. Therefore justice is far from us, and righteousness does not reach us; we wait for light, and lo! there is darkness; and for brightness, but we walk in gloom. We grope like the blind along a wall, groping like those who have no eyes; we stumble at noon as in the twilight, among the vigorous as though we were dead." (Is. 59:8-10)

Thus, to Isaiah, Israel does not qualify as one who has "done no injustice and spoken no falsehood" (verse 9).

"Yet it was OUR sickness that HE was bearing, OUR suffering that HE endured'.

Who is the prophet speaking of here? Who is the OUR and the HE? Aren't there two different entities here?

"WE accounted HIM plagued, Smitten and afflicted by G-d. But HE was wounded because of OUR sins, Crushed because of OUR iniquities. HE bore the chastisement that made US whole, And by HIS bruises WE were healed."

Two entities.

"WE all went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-rd visited upon HIM the guilt of all of US".

No innocence here. Whose guilt is it that is "visited" upon "HIM"?

Is. 53:11 is also the only place in scripture where the phrase, "My righteous servant" is used. Others are called, "My servant", but not "My righteous servant". A righteous servant must be holy. Who is this righteous servant?....

Also, one of the things traditional Jews fail to realize is that, since they insist on holding onto the Mosaic Covenant without realizing that Yahweh had a better covenant in mind, they must also adhere to the Talmud, Zohar, and Kaballah - ALL man-made thoughts, and ALL filled with magic, numerology, astrology and the like (things that the Bible clearly tells us God HATES - See Isaiah 47:13-14, Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Deuteronomy 18:9-11, Deuteronomy 17:2-5, and Leviticus 20:6) Since traditional Jews insist on clinging to these things, however, perhaps they should read the Talmud AGAIN, for it clearly shows that Evidence for Yeshua at 30 CE!

Luke 11:52 - "Woe to you Torah experts! For you have taken away the key of knowledge! Not only did you yourselves not go in, you also have stopped those who were trying to enter!"